Kaiser Surgeon lying to patient about acupuncture risk!! OPinions please???

[Amy Shouse]

Here is an email I got from my friend today. She wrote to me and my sister (who is a nurse). Of course I fired back telling her about our sterilized needles, clean needle technique, risk of infection, etc...etc....

I need some help here though. any thoughts on this? Even if you just want to vent? It infuriates me so much that this surgeon is convincing his patient to stop acupuncture based on ignorance.

ugh.




Hi Girls,

I have to write and ask both of you about this situation with my dad. He has been told he needs a partial knee replacement surgery by Kaiser and I convinced him to go to an accupuncturist while he waits for them to fit him in. So he goes, even though he doesn't believe in it (whatev) and feels better than he has since it started, but he ascribes that to the pills Kaiser has been giving him, although he's been on them a while without these results. Anyway, it must have been enough to convince him to try it an extra time (I paid for the first two visits) but then he emails me and says that his surgeon has said there's a risk of infection with accupuncture (oh, and the accupuncturist he is seeing was an orthopedic surgeon in China and ran a hospital) and he can't risk that. I was sooo pissed I wrote him back saying that my MD has studied accupuncture and no way would he say that sh**.
Anyway, opinions? My sister says that he is apparently still feeling better than he has in a long time.

Aaargh!

[Amy Shouse]

Hey Valerie,

I just wanted to say thanks for you input on this subject. I meant to thank you earlier but I got caught up in finals and blah blah. But I want you to know that I truly value your opinion Valerie!

[Valerie]

Hey, I totally appreciate the power of a good vent!

You're right, of course, but you've forgotten the one critical element to your rant. In the doctor's opinion, those risky procedures and other branches of medicine are valid whereas ours is not. It is really hard for people to accept something that they do not understand. I come from a background of two decades of solid western medical experience and there are still times, as much as I believe in the medicine, that I find what we do to be completely incomprehensible. And I know it works!

Rational, logical thought doesn't always have a place in a belief. It looks like this doctor doesn't believe in the validity of TCM, for whatever reason, and I have to think that he's not approached that belief with a logical assessment of his assertions. Because, of course, everything you've said is 100% correct. There is A LOT of risk in western medicine, dentistry, psychiatry, pharmacology, etc. But because those risks come from what is to him an acceptable source, the risk is a valid one. This thing he doesn't believe carries too great a risk for him, for no better reason that he thinks it isn't valid.

He may not be open to change but he is in a position for someone to plant a seed. The real target is your friend's father who is feeling real relief from his treatments and should be encouraged to take strength in that relief and continue his treatments, regardless of what the doctor says. I';m not a big fan of second guessing in cases where i am not directly involved, but this is a good course. Taking the doctor's advice, in this case, is not in the patient's best interest. So if the patient can be encouraged to continue treatment and the doctor can see that in this one case something good results and there are no catastrophic effects, it plants a seed. Of course, he'll write off the seed as the placebo effect but the point is, he sees someone, has tangible evidence of someone who was helped by acupuncture. Someday in the future there may be another. And another. And another. And then, on one glorious day, a plant will start to grow.

We'll change the world, one medical professional at a time, if we have to.

[Amy Shouse]

Valerie- one last thing that just popped in my head as I was cleaning my kitchen and thinking this stuff over....

I am sure this doctor is aware that there are risks to any procedure. I am sure this doctor knows there are minimal risks when any patient sees a dentist, or goes under anesthesia, or takes a pharmacological agent or herb, etc.....

Do you think that this doctor would suggest that his patient not see the dentist or take certain drugs or never go under anesthesia, etc....?

I guess what I am saying is that it is irrational when you look at the big picture- to advise someone to not get acupuncture b/c a risk exists (however minimal). It just seems that if an acupuncturist puts a needle into somebody and some adverse event happens- well, we all get lumped into one big group with the title "risky and incompetent." Yet, its okay for there to be plenty of western doctors, dentists, etc...etc... to make mistakes without the entire field of western practice getting shunned or dismissed.

You know me, I do not shun the entire field of western medicine....my entire paternal side of the family is full of MD's. It just seems that for a western reductionist mindset that prides itself on empiricism ('the facts, ma'am')....well, this mindset is illogical when given the cost/benefit ratio.

I guess that is also what really gets my goat. Just had to add that little piece. Clearly I needed to get that out there!

thanks!

[Amy Shouse]

Thanks Valerie for you thoughtful comments. When I posted this I was in the heat of reacting to the email from my friend. Since then (yesterday!) I have calmed down a bit. And yes, it is possible that the doctor is speaking from experience.

Yes, the risk from the surgery is much greater. I guess that was one of the things that really got my goat on this! Me and my friend who wrote the email actually have ANOTHER friend who went in for a simple out-patient orthoscopic procedure on his knee about a year ago. Well, he ended up with staph and it nearly destroyed his knee. He was on antibiotics for weeks and his overall recovery time? Well, he is still recovering. So this email was especially infuriating.

Anyway! Thanks for the measured and thoughtful response. I know we will be fighting this battle for a long time... you are right. Its nice to check in with my peers and get some support on this issue though!

:-)

[Valerie]

I can really see how frustrating that is for you and your friend. This doctor may be speaking from a place of ignorance, or he may be speaking from a past experience with a less than ethical practitioner. (Let's face it, it happens) Either way, I'd ask the patient to consider his own critical thinking in making a decision. Of course he must see the acupuncturist opening sterile needles and he must notice that they go directly into a needle disposal. He sees the acupuncturist clean the area before inserting needles, so of course contamination risk is minimal. Not zero, but very small. Frankly, the risk of infection from his pending surgery is much greater and I'm sure you can find some statistics on nosocomial infections to back that up.

If he isn't already aware of his acupuncturists advanced education level, he should be told. Essentially, he's on an equal plane with the Kaiser doctor. That should count for something.

Finally, I would ask the patient to consider his own experience. The doctor might not believe in TCM but the patient can't deny that he feels better than he ever has before and all other things being equal, the acupuncture is the only change in routine. Logic dictates, therefore, that the acupuncture must be a significant contributing factor to his improved state. if he needs any further encouragement, and his daughter has the ability, she could offer to keep paying for his treatments. People will often do something for which they might have a reluctance if they aren't paying for it themselves.

Good luck! This is a battle I fear we will be fighting for a very long time.